Guidance Please!

[Ona]

(Now I reread the earlier part of the thread, a couple of people already said "A&P" which would be parallel to what I was saying in my own way. )

One can think about "progress" less as being "stuck" at "level x" and then BAM suddenly at "level y" but rather that during the course of any given "level" one is going deeper and deeper, bit by bit (which is tied into these cycles of A&P and dark night patterns that are typical). The cycling is not a "stalled out" or "stuck" thing, but rather the exploration and deepening and letting go that needs to develop at the stage you are at.

[Bill29ish]

From my own current understanding, you don't become anything. There is no you, no clouds, no sky, nothing to become. Also, of course there's you, the clouds and the sky.
You may have an idea that once you get past a certain point, you will have this thing that you've wanted or been working towards your whole life. You won't. And you won't be able to conceptualize realization. It will sink into you when your body is open and ready. And it still won't be what you want.
Please feel free to ask questions, and forget any sense of embarassment. I've been around here and dho enough to see many people make far grander claims, only to pull a "whoops" when humility allowed.

[joelchigliak]

Haha- ok thanks! Back to the drawing board!

This does feel like a big, month-long, shift though, even of I'm not very good at putting it into words. The reduction in mental 'noise' and increase in sensory clarity alone would have made it worth it, never mind any 'spiritual' aspect. Really appreciate the feedback and these communities...

[Ona]

If you were told that the changes happening in your daily experience had a special name how would that change your daily practice?

[joelchigliak]

I see what you're getting at but I'm not sure to be honest.

Because I used(!?!) to suffer from depression I'm doubly scared of DN stuff, so, if someone told me it was likely this was second path, I'd feel a lot more confident about proceeding as if hair on fire with the hope that the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks going forward from this point. I'm aware of the irony, but I'm sure the ego would also like to feel that it had 'achieved' something given that I have so few successes any more in any other areas of my life!

[Ona]

??? Because you think that after second path you will never have a tough time in meditation again??? Never heard of such a thing.

[Ona]

Also, by this point the process just runs on its own. Who said "better not to start; if you start, finish the job" or words to that effect. Just make practice a part of your life.

[joelchigliak]

It's definitely not that I don't expect more tough times, it's just that I hoped that beyond a certain point, the positives would start to outweigh the negatives? I don't seem to be able to depressively ruminate at the moment for instance. My brain just isn't doing it; I'd assumed maybe because it had seen there wasn't anyone to ruminate for?

Have I fundamentally got this wrong? Can third path DNs, in terms of their impact on day-to-day life - be worse than the earlier ones? That wasn't the impression I'd got from what 'd read?

[Ona]

I think it's less that the positives start to outweigh the negatives as that that distinction of putting things into boxes labeled "positives" and "negatives" starts to crumble. The relationship to stuff changes. I personally found the deep existential dread stuff that was characteristic later much harder to be with than the more physical tension and monsters stuff from earlier periods. I never had dark night stuff impact day to day life in a notable way, either, so your mileage may vary. (I did suffer depression earlier in life, which I treated with therapy and medication. It didn't overlap with my meditation practice.)

You do tend to gradually get better at recognizing how much of your "life drama" stuff is all your own stupid shit and don't just reactively sulk and lash out as much as those patterns become clearer. Compassion grows. But you still get to see all that shit up close and personal, and that can be humbling, scary and sad, depending on the moment. How you react to being humbled, scared or sad is going to depend on your personal history etc.

[joelchigliak]

Ok- thanks Ona- i'll look forward to deep existential dread stuff! It's funny cos this shift seems to have got rid of my 'existential' problems as I now feel part of the universe rather than just someone who doesn't even know why he's here.

Like you say earlier though - the mindfulness/noting has started to become habitual in daily life now so I'm not sure I could stop this process even if I tried.

Just out of interest- was the whole thing worth it?