Guidance Please!

[joelchigliak]

I have a long-standing history of anxiety and depression. I recently got (what I'm 99% sure was) stream entry and after about a week of feeling fantastic and 'empty' of self, I started to have a really hard time obviously 'cycling' through the stages (review?) whilst trying to get to sleep at night. Eventually this faded but I then slipped into the worst 3-month depressive episode I've ever had (signed off work and couldn't get out of bed.)

I realise this is probably not the best way to ask this, but I'm wondering - based on your experiences - whether you think I should continue with this hardcore mindfulness business? In terms of probability, am I likely to be through the worst of this or facing worse dark nights/cycling to come? I'm just not sure who to turn to or trust anymore after being introduced to 'mindfulness-lite' by my doctor.....

[Russell]

Hey Joel,

Welcome. 1st, please describe your practice previous to what you think was SE and describe the event itself. Did you have a teacher? 2nd, make sure you keep seeing your doctor/therapist if you are feeling depressed or anxious at the levels you seem to be talking about. This practice is not designed to avoid these type of problems, but to face them. And yes, it can make it worse in some stages as you have seen.

If you did get SE, then it's hard to not continue, because now you are in the "stream". The level of awareness at that point makes it hard not to break things down. Things start to take a mind of their own it seems.

[joelchigliak]

My practice prior to SE was about 2 hrs per day of fairly undisciplined counting breaths/noting/listening to external sounds for about 6 months. At one point I started to suspect I was cycling between DN and EQ and when in EQ I noted 'gone' on the end of the sound trail of a passing car. My consciousness flashed up into my head and spasmed wildly for about 5 seconds. When I came to again it was clear Something Was Different. My internal chatter was diminished by about 80% and there was a distinct difference in my sense of self which lasted about a week. If I shut my eyes I would find myself in different jhanas pretty quickly- still no idea which ones. I then started to become aware of cycling through fear etc when going to sleep. I didn't have a teacher.

Btw- just out of interest- are you the same 'Russell' on here who has found the whole 'enlightenment' thing somewhat underwhelming?

[Russell]

Btw- just out of interest- are you the same 'Russell' on here who has found the whole 'enlightenment' thing somewhat underwhelming?

Underwhelming? No, but it is not what I expected. I am not sure what I expected anymore, as i do t have expectations of what will or can possibly come next. But I will say this whole thing is actually very ordinary in a way.

[joelchigliak]

Does anyone else have any guidance they could offer? Just don't know who to turn to/trust about this anymore? Tried talking a bit about it to my psychiatrist and he - perhaps unsurprisingly - looked at me like I was even more 'mad'!....

[Russell]

My practice prior to SE was about 2 hrs per day of fairly undisciplined counting breaths/noting/listening to external sounds for about 6 months. At one point I started to suspect I was cycling between DN and EQ and when in EQ I noted 'gone' on the end of the sound trail of a passing car. My consciousness flashed up into my head and spasmed wildly for about 5 seconds. When I came to again it was clear Something Was Different. My internal chatter was diminished by about 80% and there was a distinct difference in my sense of self which lasted about a week. If I shut my eyes I would find myself in different jhanas pretty quickly- still no idea which ones. I then started to become aware of cycling through fear etc when going to sleep. I didn't have a teacher.

Sorry, I didn't have time to answer your question last night. I think it would be best to talk to a teacher, even just quickly over skype to get a better idea of what is up. I don't know if that was SE or not by that description. I am happy to chat to get more details but I do not consider myself a teacher, but I can give lots of recommendations. PM me.

As for the therapist, did you talk to them about the meditation stuff? I would suspect most people would look at us as if we were mad. I suggest you don't mix the two.

[Bill29ish]

I agree with everything else Russell has posted. I experienced some very delusional/paranoid/anxiety-wracked/depressing periods in the weeks after stream entry, and it was quite debilitating. I think it is imperative that you continue working with psychiatrist/therapist about whatever may be coming up for you. The dark night/review may be exacerbating some things, but it can not manufacture anything, it's all an expression of us. I say this because there were things I was blind to, because it was easier to scape goat it as just more dark night stuff. As for specific practical stuff, if you did hit stream entry things will continue to move forward. Try to cut down on practicing as intensely and allow things to settle. As for specific practices, i found metta to be extremely beneficial for periods where I was very contracted, specifically sending the energy of metta to the places of discomfort. There's also a vajrayana practice called earth breathing that is very grounding. It's easiest to locate these in the body in my experience. Feel free to ask more questions if you should stumble upon more distressing experiences.

[Dan G]

Hi Joel,

I would just like to add that I found Cognitive Behavioral Therapy complimentary to my practice when going through some really rough patches. Like insight teachers (most teachers for that matter), some therapists are incredibly awesome and some are really bad. I would have a few conversations and see who you feel comfortable with. Bc sometimes its not who is good or bad, competent or incompetent, but who you click with it, i.e. who can deliver the goods when you need a particular set of goods. I found therapy helpful in getting me grounded, back on my feet, and out of my spinning thoughts. Of course, diet and excercise helps. For me a ketogenic/paleo diet seems to help when I am going through a rough patch (lack of sugar? not sure). I found Julia Ross' Mood Cure (awful title) really good and helpful. Diet and amino acid summplement suggestions there. This stuff is all controversial just sharing what helped me get out of a major rut.

Psychology Today has a list of folks that you can search by zip and filter functions that include Buddhism. I used this and it helped me track someone down who was awesome (and I don't live in a particularly open and progressive community). Personally, I would only use specific terminology like A&P and stream entry with an insight teacher, some therapists my be able to handle more general language like ,"I had this big spiritual opening that I've had a hard time processing." Stuff you probably already know.

http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/prof_search.php?t=zip

My two cents. Wishing you the best.

Dan

[jwhooper]

I would just like to add that I suffered from anxiety and depression for a very long time, but they dropped away somewhere along the paths. I never suffer like I used to anymore. If you feel like your practice could be making it worse, switch to metta for a while. In my experience, metta is a very soothing, safe practice.

Keep going. I quit practicing for years and that did not improve my anxiety or depression at all. Use metta, and try to stay with the anxiety or depression. Do not resist it. Try to be with it, accept it, and understand it. From experience I know this is difficult. Cultivate love and compassion for yourself, and then extend it to the anxiety and depression. Give it time.

[joelchigliak]

Guys! I think I just woke up!

Is it even possible to go from 1st path to 4th in the matter of about a week?!! Without any fruitions?

My mindfulness became a habit in daily life and presumably the thing just went exponential!...

I see quite clearly now that the self is just made up of verbal 'talk' and mental imagery occurring in the present moment, a present moment which I am not separate from!

Thanks for all your kind responses anyway, even if this isn't 'it'.

I think I owe Kenneth (and Daniel and Shinzen of course) a drink!