Actual Freedom discussion, please

[cmarti]

"Every major religion in history is responsible for various horrible things…"

PEOPLE do those horrible things to each other and sometimes justify them using religion. If you are confused about the cause you will start blaming religion indiscriminately when it's not religion per se that is the problem, but how human beings are to each other, and how they justify their behavior using religion, or philosophy, or politics, or science, or what have you.

Just a point of clarification….

[beoman.claudiu]

"Every major religion in history is responsible for various horrible things…"

PEOPLE do those horrible things to each other and sometimes justify them using religion. If you are confused about the cause you will start blaming religion indiscriminately when it's not religion per se that is the problem, but how human beings are to each other, and how they justify their behavior using religion, or philosophy, or politics, or science, or what have you.

Just a point of clarification….

Of course it is the people doing the horrible things, being manipulated by other people in the name of X, where X might be religion, philosophy, political systems, etc. There's no religion outside of people.

My point is that sensibility is the answer to people no longer doing horrible things to each other, and that an aspect of religion that cannot be separated from religion is that it confounds said sensibility in various ways, as does any other belief system. This does not mean religion is 100% bad and that it doesn't help people. Just that it's not the ultimate answer to the problem which is the reason we are all together in this business of finding out how best to live our lives in whatever way we can, be it via meditation or actualism or whatnot.

[cmarti]

"… sensibility is the answer to people no longer doing horrible things to each other…"

Sounds suspiciously like a belief system to me

[beoman.claudiu]

"… sensibility is the answer to people no longer doing horrible things to each other…"

Sounds suspiciously like a belief system to me

If being sensible is a belief system then everything is a belief system and we might as well not use the term. What makes something a belief system vs. not in your evaluation of the world?

[cmarti]

Assuming any concept can change human beings would qualify as a belief system. Which does indeed mean that pretty much everything we "believe in" is a belief system.

[beoman.claudiu]

Assuming any concept can change human beings would qualify as a belief system. Which does indeed mean that pretty much everything we "believe in" is a belief system.

Oh! Then much to my delight we actually agree. Hopefully if considering I was talking about a belief system led you to expect me to disagree here (and say something like, but no really this one will work this time), then the fact that I don't will help change that consideration.

I don't think the concept of being sensible can be use to convince everyone to change. Actually the more I talk to people the more clear it is that it's impossible to convince anyone of anything or to change anyone in any way. The other person has to be open to it, at which point you're just sharing ideas without an attempt to 'win' by having them agree.

But I do think we influence each other based on observing how we act. And being sensible leads to behavior that is pleasant to others. So hopefully it'll catch on. If not then, well I can still enjoy myself without hurting others.

But it would be a nice world indeed if everyone were sensible.. and nice in an entirely different (and much preferable) way than if everyone were religious or spiritual or Buddhist or philosophical etc.